Changing Times: Interview with Colin Millar

In the next instalment of my inside perspective of life at Hibernian, I was able to spend some time with Hibernian's Communications Manager, Colin Millar.
I first met Colin through the Working Together meetings, and I sat beside Colin during Leeann Dempster's first supporters meeting on the day of the Rod Petrie protests.
Since that day, Colin has joined Hibernian, initially as the Supporter Liaison, and now in his current role as Communications Manager.
Colin is well placed to talk about the changes at the club in his time, and you only need a short while in his company to see how much the football club means to him.

I remember sitting beside you on the day of the Petrie protests, at that point your role didn't exist as far as I'm aware. Talk me through what happened.
I was probably a bit of an opportunist, really. On a personal level, I'm from an accountancy background, and I knew I wanted to get into sport as it's my big passion.
I did some volunteering both at the club and with some other things, so I knew I needed to make the jump. 
My plan was to go and study Post-Grad at Stirling University in Sports Management and see if I could pick up a part time job along the way. I had loads of ideas on how I wanted to influence things at Hibs, to change things that the club could do a little bit better. 
The big change for me, was after I was chairing a Working Together meeting at the training ground. I still lived in Glasgow, Leeann lived out west as well, so I was a bit cheeky and asked her for a lift home. She said 'yes'.
That gave me about an hour's pitch. I got on really well with her, I talked through what I wanted to achieve, she told me what she wanted to achieve and why she had come to Hibs, and we got on from there. 
My big thing at the time was the Supporter Liaison role. Leeann thought a lot of clubs took that role as a separate thing, independent from the club. Leeann's view was for the Liaison to make a meaningful impact at the club they had to be ingrained in the club to really influence things on a daily basis, so that they have a full understanding.
There was that, and the club was also moving towards the big consultations about the ownership and what that structure was going to be. The club wanted to involve supporters, so my initial role was to come in and oversee that consultation process. That started with three consultation meetings.
They were post-Alloa defeat, I remember the first weekend before starting work, going to Alloa thinking "We'll get three points here". It was at the end of the transfer window so there was a lot of chat about signing some new players, so I thought the Monday meeting would be really positive. 
As it was, Farid goes down with the really bad injury, we lost to Alloa , and the meetings took a different turn.
The meetings were heated and lively but really interesting. From that, we developed the online survey which focussed on representation, ownership, and engagement with the club. From that, probably the big immediate thing was getting the Supporter's Representatives on the board, so I managed the process around that, as well as doing some bits on the communication side.

What would you say are the differences between the Fans Representatives on the board, and the Supporter Liaison?
I think the Fans Representatives are two people that are fully elected by the supporters, who are there to represent the supporters, and who are influencing things at the top level.
I see the Supporter Liaison role as only good if it's ingrained in how the club operates on a daily basis, similar to the Fans Representatives. We could put them on the board, the box is ticked, and there's no tangible difference - I don't think it's like that here, from what I understand they are fully involved in the decision making, the same as any other board member. 
I see part of my role as Supporter Liaison as basically being the voice of the supporter, and thinking as a supporter in everything we do - whether that's daily communications through social media, ticketing updates - I'm quite heavily involved in the ticketing information and the decisions that go around that like loyalty points and everything else, through to the campaigns. I've been involved in the season ticket campaigns, the kit launch campaigns. 
I think it's just having a supporter's view on it. Don't get me wrong, as soon as you become an employee of the club, that nature of the relationship changes - that's inevitable. I genuinely think it's an ethos running throughout the club in everything we do, that the impact on supporters is a fundamental part of the decision making. 
Other clubs could have a liaison officer in name alone. I've been round other clubs and see what they do, both here and down south. They can be quite tokenistic in what they do, they get the supporter in, give them a bib and an email address, and it allows that club to distance themselves from the complaints that come in, be it catering or atmosphere. They can push it on to the liaison officer and let them deal with it. 
Here it's different, it's part of the role, it's ingrained in everything we do.

How did you deal with adjusting to that change in relationship, moving from a supporter to an employee?
It's very different and difficult. I think in a way, I always used to get bothered by the result. 
As a supporter, if you lose on a Saturday you go home on a Saturday night and you're in a mood. It maybe bothers you on a Sunday but by Monday you're back at work and you move on.
I lived my whole life until now in the west, so I was never surrounded by Hibs supporters or Hearts supporters, in the same way that other people would go to their work and Hibs and Hearts would still be the major talking point.
Here, I remember the game against Cowdenbeath, the 3-2 game, which was the first home game after the consultation. The relief when that third goal was scored in the last minute - because it's not just the three points, which is normally the be all and end all. 
It's "I can't do that promotion we wanted to push out", things are always that much more difficult when we lose rather than when we win. 
It's a strange profession in that you can do everything right Monday to Friday, but if the result goes against you on a Saturday a lot of the good work is not as good as if the team had won.
The thinking here is that I can't influence the result on a Saturday, so let's make sure that everything else is as good as it can possibly be, because we can only control what we can control.
Last season I had no role at away games, so I worked home games and went to the away games as a fan. With the recent change in role, I'm going to a lot of the away games as a worker, so I do miss going to the game on a Saturday, relaxing with friends and family, and enjoying the game. 
I wouldn't trade it for the world though, coming to a place I love at Easter Road, I'll never moan about that.

We talked about the volatile nature of the supporter's mood, when you have a meeting and there's been a bad result, how do you see through the anger or frustration at the result to pick out the valuable bits?
I think it's looking at the point that's been made. Everyone gets frustrated at the result, if someone wants to air that frustration about the manager and his tactics, that's fine -there's not a lot I can do about that. 
If it's points around catering, communication, Hibs TV, programmes, things like that, we might see more of them after a bad defeat but it doesn't make the point any less valid, so it's things that we want to pick up and improve on.
Our plan changes, but we want to be consistent, so that means that we can't shy away from defeats or when things don't go well, in the same way we can't go shouting from the rooftops after a good result. 
I think you need to consider any analysis in the wider context, whether it's Facebook likes or engagement with the videos, there's going to be an element that's dependant on the results.
You can try and strip the emotion out to an extent and ask "Did we do a good job? Are the complaints or points valid? What can we do to improve on things?" 
There's a culture here now to constantly want to improve on things. It's can be very easy if the team wins to sit back and think "That was a great match day." but the key difference now is you look at it from an operational point of view as much as a result point of view. 
If we'd beat St Mirren 2-1, I'd have been happy that we'd won, but my reflection on the match would have been no different as if we'd lost, we still need to make sure that we produce the output for Hibs TV before and after the game, that the Manager's interview goes out, that the programme is ready. There is an element of just stripping out the emotion and working as professionally as we can in the jobs we are here to do.

Looking at the changes in the club since the protests, what differences do you see?
I'm one of the longest serving people in the commercial office! There has been change right throughout the club. In the Community Foundation, Wendy's now Head there, Community Football is exploding, there's more activity in there than ever before. There's the public/social partnership with NHS Lothian, there's a lot of work and effort going into that. There's the two Supporter's Reps on the board, changing the make up of the board as well. 
Our department - Greig's new in to Commercial. We've new people in hospitality, in sales, in communications.
I think that shows how much has changed. The football operation has totally changed, the manager has come in, but the whole structure - everyone knows about the change to structure with George coming in as Head of Football Operations, changes to sports nutrition. There has been so much change across the whole club, like HSL and the share issue.
There's been opportunities and tangible change across the board, and now is the opportunity to consolidate that and build on it and push on.

How do you see your own role evolving as part of that?
I changed role slightly at the start of September - exactly one year to the day from coming on board. I'm now Communications Manager since Andrew Sleight decided to move on. We've changed the structure of the Communications team a little bit. 
I'm Communications Manager, there's a PR and Media Exec, a Digital Development Exec, and there's a great team of volunteers that sit underneath and feed into that. 
I'm now the main contact point for the press and media, and responsible for the content going out on Hibs TV, the website, and social media.
That doesn't mean to say I'll be in front of the camera, that's not my skill set at all, I'll be avoiding that as much as possible!
I think I have a different set of skills that I can bring to it, it's not a role that I foresaw me taking on, but Leeann gave me an opportunity a year ago, and Leeann is giving me an opportunity again now and I think if folk have been happy with what I've done over that year I can keep pushing on. I have great people to work with and that motivates me to keep going.
My first day in the role was transfer deadline day, which was a nice quiet introduction to the role. It was the same last year so I seem to pick my first days!
There will be a lot to learn in the role as well, but it's a challenge I'm really looking forward to. We keep seeing progress in terms of communication but we're still a long way off where I want to be. 
The kit launch and the season ticket videos went down well and set a benchmark. We need to improve on that. Outside the Box was a fantastic success, we need to improve upon that, be more consistent with that.
We've started the matchday video which is a sort of recap of what has gone on at Easter Road so supporters can see we're opening the club up to show what goes on behind the scenes, so they see it's more than just the ninety minutes - there's so much more going on.
We need to sing about the work of the Community Foundation a little bit more and show the work that's going on to make the club a success, 

What would you like to see next for your role and the club in general?
Improvement. We are always looking to improve upon what we're doing. I want to see our communication being more consistent, looking better, sounding better, feeling better. 
Our goal is to be the best in the country at everything we do.
We don't have the same resources as some other clubs, but we have decent resources, but there's no reason why we can't be best at communications.
That's the long term challenge, but for now it's about making sure the supporters are involved and know what's going on at the club, and being open and transparent and having some fun with it. Football should be fun, but there are serious messages to get across as well, and we have to bridge that gap with supporters. 
For the club - we have to win the league, win promotion. Thankfully I'm not responsible for that, but - and I'm talking as a supporter now - I think we have the makings of a really good squad, there's no reason why we shouldn't be there or thereabouts at the end of the season.
Football's based on results, look at last season - was it a success? We finished above a team with much greater resources in Rangers, we did well in the cups, the style of football was better, we scored more goals and conceded fewer, but we didn't achieve promotion. 
Looking at it from the support point of view, it's encouraging that season ticket numbers have held, with a slight increase, and we need to get people back to Easter Road. We want to get as many people back to Easter Road as possible, that's the challenge - I completely understand why people stopped coming, supporters have gone through an awful lot.
We'll keep working hard to get people back, we'll also put an awful lot of effort to get new supporters along to the ground. 
We'll hopefully see a lot more in the match day experience, making sure that kids...  kids is an absolute focus of ours, whether it's the Hibs Kids that we're already engaging with, whether it's the schools that we're engaging with in the school ticket initiative, whether it's the  kids that are coming through the Hibee Tots camps, or whether it's other initiatives that we can make use of to bring new people into the stadium. 
I think a lot of our traditional supporters can be weary of Championship football, coming up against teams that are more defensive, but in reality we are winning more games here than we did in the top league, it's probably a nice environment to introduce people to the club. 
We are generally scoring more goals, conceding fewer goals. We are generally winning games, and whilst we obviously don't want to be here, I want to use it as an opportunity to bring more people in so that their first experiences of Hibs is positive. We're winning games, scoring goals, they're hopefully enjoying themselves at the games and then over time they maybe get used to the ups and downs of the reality of supporting Hibs over the longer term.
This is an opportunity to bring people in and interacting with the club, whether that's through traditional means or thinking a little differently and seeing how we can use the wider work that the club does in the community to introduce them. 
There's been some really nice stories about people coming to the games for the first time, and we want to keep building on that and have as many people interacting with the badge as possible.


Many thanks to Colin for his time to make this interview possible.

Changing Times - Interview with Leeann Dempster

Leeann Dempster arrived at Hibernian in the worst possible circumstances. Having been sounded out and recruited by a Hibernian board that knew the club needed to change, and knew who they wanted to lead the change many months before Terry Butcher oversaw the horrendous decline in results that saw the club relegated, Leeann's first week in post could hardly have been more challenging.

With the backdrop of an angry support clamouring for the removal of Rod Petrie, Leeann took over a club that should have been looking forward to a Scottish Premiership campaign in a league without Hearts and Rangers, but instead found itself facing up to life in the Championship alongside their city rivals, and the Glasgow club working its way up the divisions following liquidation two years previously. 

If Hibs couldn't have picked a worse time to be relegated (not that there is ever a good time), Leeann Dempster also couldn't have picked a more challenging time to take control of the club. I have been looking at the changes at Hibernian since that point in time, and I've been grateful to have been given time with people within the club who have been able to give me their perspective on life at Hibs in the time since the Rod Petrie protests. 

Earlier this week, I spent some time at Easter Road with Leeann, to get her perspective on the journey so far, and how she sees that journey progressing in the coming months and years.  

I came away from the meeting with renewed optimism not just about the season, but for the future of the football club. There is a clear plan in place, thought out, considered, and clearly defined. The club knows where it wants to go, and knows how to get there. When I think back to the summer of 2012, and the Working Together meetings of that time, there was nothing to suggest that such a plan. It was no surprise, having seen the club close up at that period, that we were on a downward spiral. 

Conversely, it will be no surprise to me that we will find ourselves on an upward trajectory before too long. From the conversation around the interview, it was clear that every aspect of the club has had a root and branch review. 

From the catering - some of which will be coming in-house - to how supporters interact with the club on a match day, to how supporters can share life events like birthdays, weddings, memorials, etc. All of this is done with a view to growing the income to fund the first team. 

Everything is geared towards making the first team successful, and is about sowing the seeds from which the club can grow and flourish in an effective and sustainable way, where the fortunes of the club don't rest on the shoulders of a management team as they have in the past. 

Everything is geared towards making Hibernian great again.

You met the supporters while the protest against Rod Petrie were going on outside the West Stand, as supporters we can see there has been a change, but how would you describe the biggest difference at the club?

The biggest difference, well there are so many differences because I don't believe that there is any part of the club that has been untouched since the first of June 2014, so that's a hard one to hone down. 

Culturally the club is very different. I was attracted to come to this club in the first place because there was absolute potential bursting all over the place, and I really didn't have to think twice when I got the opportunity to come here. So I think that in itself tells you the sort of gravitas that I felt for the club.

It was a really, really attractive proposition for me from a professional perspective because I could see the opportunity. 

I felt there was a disconnect in many ways. Football is all about the supporters and the relationship with the supporters. You can be football team but if you don't have the supporters with you and you don't have your supporters coming through the gates, then you won't achieve anything because you will remain at a much smaller size and you won't leverage the capabilities that are there.

I thought there was a massive opportunity to change that up, and to be honest it was quite an easy fix.

When you think about the headwinds there - you were in that meeting - in a really strange way it made me more - I was pretty determined anyway - but it made me more determined with what was going on outside and what was going on in the meeting.

The raw emotion reassured me in a way because it showed me that the supporters wanted the club to be successful.

That really energised me. It was like starting a mission, it wasn't like a labour of love - I'm not going to be crass and pretend that I was a Hibernian supporter since I was five, but I'm absolutely a Hibernian supporter now, but it feels like an absolute mission now, it feels like a labour of love now. Everyone that comes in here now and everyone working with us now, I believe it feels the same way for them as well. You see the reaction on a Saturday when we achieve something and when we don't achieve things, and the pain is as real for us as it is for everyone else, and I think that's a good thing to have within the staff base here because it connects everyone back. 

I think the change has been that relationship - that rebuilding of the relationship with supporters - and I don't think 'relationship' is the right word for it, because the connection between a football club and the supporters is something special, and if football clubs don't recognise that then they're missing out.

There's all the structural things, all the re-structure and rebuilding of the football side, and we did that in a very different way to how we had done it in the past. That's not me passing comment on whether it was done properly or not in the past, it was very much the model that many football clubs had followed, we just came at it in a very different way.It's been well talked about this idea of technical coaches supported properly. 

When clubs get relegated they tend to contract, and even in the face of the headwinds and everything that was facing us at that point we never did that. We stayed true to the plan that we came to the club with. 

My first appointment was George Craig, and George has been one of the mainstays and a hugely important element of the development of the club, and the development of the club in the years to come. So when we talk about the football plan, him and I always worked well together. He was one of the first people I connected with when I came into football and I knew I wanted someone as strong as him to come and start this with me.

When you talk about potential, what do you see that potential being?

I think even though we're in the Championship and we have to fight to get out of the Championship at the minute - so some people might think 'dream on' - but this is a capital city club. It has a high number of supporters coming through the gates, it has the potential to probably bring double that again. 

With that brings the club the opportunity and the funds to continue to improve. This club shouldn't be happy to just get back into the Premier league.

Over time, and whatever defined period of time that is, we want to be in the top echelons of the Scottish game, so not just a top six club, we want to be up there challenging at the top of that league, challenging for the European spots, and participating at that level. 

We also know we have to get there first, we also know that we have done some of the work and there's a lot more work to get us there. I've been fortunate enough to enjoy that stuff in my time in the game, and I believe I understand what it takes to achieve that. and this club has every ingredient to achieve that, and more.

I want us to be challenging for cups and getting to finals and semi-finals. We should be doing that on an ongoing basis. Our aspirations are no different to any other clubs', but I think they are realistic. Hibernian is a massive club - that's the old cliche, big club/massive club, but we  are. Everything about us suggests that, and supporters won't be satisfied until we're back doing what we should be doing, until we're back taking our role at the table at Scottish football again.

We also need to respect the league we're in at the minute, respect the teams that we compete against at the minute, and do all we possibly can to make that leap and get up.

We have massive aspirations for this club. Aspirations for an elite club, and aspirations for a community involvement, or hub for Edinburgh. I think football misses an opportunity because we interact with people daily, not just at the weekends, but daily. The emotion associated with football is raw and special, and if we can interact in any way outside of the sport we should do that. Clubs are wakening up to that and I don't want us to be at the back of the queue. 

How will you know when that community aspiration is achieved, what will it look like?

Look at this stadium today,we've walked around it. How many rooms are here? We want the stadium to be a dedicated point for local people, people in Edinburgh to come and use it. 

We are a founding partner of a public social partnership called Gamechanger, which in itself is probably a whole other meeting. That is all about football, equality, social justice, and health.

We would like this site (Easter Road) and Ormiston, outwith what we use it for the elite football side - and that's always a given that it's for elite football - to be used for the benefit of the community and the people that live around us.

We need to make it as accessible as possible, and it's not just about affordability, we can take that right out of the equation, we are not just sitting in a football stadium at the minute, we're sitting in a massive community asset. Four big empty buildings, with lots of land and opportunities for it to be used, and Gamechanger is a public social partnership, it's the first of it's kind where football is involved. It's innovative in the extreme, and supporters will start to hear more about that in the sphere of what we're doing in community.

I don't want to diminish the football elite side of things, but this is a building block for us.

I guess that's what it means, does it mean you come here for drop-in clinics? Well actually, there's potential for primary care to be located within the stadium, and for that primary care to be supported by third sector organisations, so actually the stadium becomes a dedicated health hub, and within that there are education environments, within that there are business start-up environments, and within that the opportunity for social enterprise. All the things that we consume as a football club could be supplied by social enterprise. 

That's five stages away, or two, or three stages away. That's where football clubs become active in their community because they give people jobs, re-educate them, give them places to start their business, give them places to do their community work, and we are no different, we have that kind of space. 

The roots of the football club are in community, does that influence your thinking?

Does it influence my thinking? It's clearly connected to where the club was founded but for me I've always been a person who's interested in the social side of life so it wasn't my motivator.

My motivator was that I think football clubs should be involved and do things, it shouldn't just be about community football. Community football is a nice starting point but it should be about other things. I'm sure many football clubs have been started in the same way around activities for, I suppose, the most needy in life at that particular point in time.

It's a nice coincidence, but it's not a motivator. I spend a lot of time thinking about what a football club looks like outside of football.

What aspects of the changes you have made so far have you taken most satisfaction from?

I think the new football structure - and I include the academy in this - it still has to achieve things, and I know that, but I'm really, really happy with the development of that and the foundations we've put down there. It gives me a lot of satisfaction that I've been involved in that.
The biggest thing is that I think a lot of supporters are now looking forward to the games, to coming to the games, look forward to what the club are doing, and what the club has to offer. That communication and that openness is probably the thing that gives me most satisfaction. 

Supporters are feeling happier and proud of their club in a strange way,I don't know if those are the right words, you're proud when you win something, people want to come to games and be entertained when they pay their money then go up the road. I've said before football is a different emotional connector, if you don't recognise that or appreciate that, you shouldn't be in the game.

If I can take you back to a Working Together meeting where you said you hoped to get to ten thousand season ticket holders, we're sitting at seven thousand eight hundred. What difference would those additional two thousand two hundred season tickets have made?

There's the obvious financial difference, there's no doubt about it. We wrestled a wee bit with that ten thousand figure, whether to go with it or not because when you put a number on it you could set yourself up for failure if you do, or you could be accused of having no ambition if you don't.

I think with the campaign around season tickets, you've noticed a visible change in how we communicate with supporters.

There's more about coming back, falling in love or at least become interested again. The tone of season ticket campaign video really kick started that, we saw some great early uptake on that. We are about six or seven hundred up on where we were this time last year. I think we finished around seven thousand eight hundred-ish last year including the half-season tickets. 

Of course it makes a massive difference, of course money coming through the turnstiles makes a massive difference. Every thousand season tickets that people buy increases the club's revenue by a quarter of a million pounds. That's significant, there's no getting away from that.

I'm probably jumping onto another subject here, but having HSL and the share issue live at the same time - there was a lot happening for people, so I think people made choices about the things that they did.

People that could afford to did a number of things, people could afford to do one thing, did one thing. People that didn't buy a season ticket bought shares. Because of HSL and the share issue it's allowed us to step forward with some confidence to go into the market for players, do things over the summer knowing that the supporters were behind us. So, for me, it's an amalgamation of a number of things, it's season tickets, it's the income from the share issue and it's the ongoing income from HSL, all of that stuff has made a marked difference. 

We're not up to speed yet in terms of the full team of people here.I think that will make a difference as well, it's smaller but it's more incremental income, as our group get together. 

That will make a difference because everyone operationally is...well you saw Colin (Millar), as an example, he was a guy who dedicated his time as a volunteer, worked through the Work Together groups, was very active, got the opportunity to do things for the club and now has a career in sport. These are the things that football does well.

We want more people to buy tickets, we need more people to buy tickets, and invest cash in the club in whatever way they see fit.

We know that if you are successful on the pitch it inevitably brings people through the gates. Marketing campaigns, messaging, and personalisation, is one way, but the one thing that brings people back is winning. 

The more we show people we have depth as a club, we'll bring people back.

Football in Scotland is in an interesting, positive time. All we've heard since 2008/2009/2010 is how difficult the game in Scotland is. All that's done is made football clubs look at what they've done in terms of recruitment and young players.

I don't know the stats, probably someone who follows these things will drag them out, but it feels like we have more young players playing these days. We have more being exported over the UK and in Europe, and that shows that the technical aspects of the game in Scotland are thriving.

There's strong competition in the Premier League, we've seen crowds coming back out, you've seen at Hearts there's crowds coming back out, great crowds coming out at Aberdeen. All of that, whether it's your team or not your team, is magnificent for the game because it shows football is still rooted there, and if you have the right product at the right time then fans will come out and support it.

We're in a very interesting development point for the club, and it coincides with a good period in the game as well, and that creates various opportunities for the club and we're well placed to take advantage of it.

When you talk about success bringing the fans back along with other things, how much more difficult does it make your task when we find ourselves going into October with the first team clinging onto the title race by its fingernails?

We never started again this season the way we might have wanted to start it but the season's a long old slog. So, the league is far from over. People were telling us it was over after two weeks. It's far from over. 

I would never say I was disappointed by the number of people that come through the gates, I think that's disrespectful to supporters to say that. I think all we can do is talk about the development of the club at the point it's at at the minute, and people will either believe us or they won't believe us. 

They either trust us or they don't trust us, and if they trust us they'll stay with us for the duration. If they like us they'll stay with us for the duration, and if they don't trust us they'll tell us soon enough - and we'll be adult enough to face into that. 

We always need and want people to come through the gates. If you want to feed the club, if you want to keep the players out there, if you want us to get the John McGinns of this world then we need to feed the club. We can't expect someone else to do it for us. We need to feed the club, but we need to get the message out there in the nature it's intended, and not as a lecture of responsibility and what have you. 

So, win games on the trot, keep clean sheets, score goals, all of those things create excitement, moments between family... and Wednesday night for me was a brilliant game, a great game of football. I really enjoyed it, and I was on the edge of my seat the whole time. We don't know what happens after that, but there will be people who go away from there saying "That was the first game I went back to, and it was a good game to go back to." Those are the memories I want to create, but we do need people to come back, we can say it softly and we can say it nicely but we do need it, and hopefully the football and the other stuff brings them back.

How difficult have you found it getting that message out in the way it's intended, without sounding like a lecture?

I think you've seen this kind of a development of a narrative within the club, and I think we're trying to keep to that. There is a comms plan that sits behind it, we've tried to price responsibly when we can, we've tried to build value in where we can. 

It comes back to the idea of feeding the club again, there needs to be a balance.You never get everything right all the time. We've had to make some decisions that we know will be palatable to some and unpalatable to others, but that's like everything else in life. 

We've created this narrative and I don't think people are buying into it because it's a marketing thing, it's because it's true.  I believe where the club is in its life at the moment, by 2025 we have a club that's 150 years old, it will be different to the club, hopefully in a more positive way, to the club that we have at the minute and very different to the club that we had last year. 

It depends how much supporters want to get involved. Some want to come to the game, sit down watch the game and disappear, and that's fine. Others want to become more entrenched in the club and be involved. It's about getting it as personal as we can. We do want to get to know our supporters and show them real appreciation for sticking by us over a difficult number of years. 

There's no point pretending that's not the case - it has been the case. It's a fact. If you pretend all that never happened people just think it's another bit of marketing spin.

I speak to loads of folk on a match day, I try my best to get around the stadium, I try my best not just to stay in hospitality but to go outside. Just do small things, when you've got kids standing outside waiting for autographs it only takes a minute to bring them in,it takes two minutes to take them pitch-side and give them a ball and let them run about, it's hardly any effort for us but those memories last a lifetime.

For us, we work here, we walk up and down the stadium. My office looks onto the stadium, if you are a Hibernian supporter you would love to work in an office like that. It becomes normal to us, but that young lad or young girl waiting outside waiting to see their favourite player, we can bring them in and let them sit in the dug-outs, it's brilliant.

My friend and I did the Football Fans in Training and being able to change in the dressing room and do laps of the pitch was brilliant, so I can relate to that. 

I arrived during the Football Fans in Training, but the dressing rooms weren't being used, so guys were needing to come dressed, or get changed in the toilets or whatever. I asked why they didn't use the dressing rooms, and it was "Well, that's the first team, so.." but I said so long as it's returned in a good condition we're happy to let you use them. 

That added a dynamic to it, they were lying not being used so if it means another twenty people or forty people come then all the better. 

We talk about a bad period for the club, which it clearly has been. Will we only be out of that bad period when we achieve promotion, or do you think we're on our way out now?

I think it depends on your perspective. We need to be promoted, everything that we are working towards is about us playing in the top league in Scotland. Not just playing and participating, but being an active challenger at the top, challenging for European spots and all the rest of it. 

It depends on your perspective. I have the privilege of working here and seeing the people that work here and I see the work that goes in. I see the hours that everyone puts in and the effort and everything is done to get the best output for the club.

In a way I think we are out of the worst period, because we've done a lot of hard work. We've done a lot of work,  but there will be supporters who believe that until we're in the top league nothing has improved, nothing's change and that's their prerogative and their perspective. That's the whole dynamic of the game, everyone has an opinion.

You look at the boards, debate rages on every topic. Listen to the radio on a Saturday and debate rages on every topic. If you went to a football match knowing you would win every game three nothing you'd stop going because you'd be bored. It'd be nice, but you'd be bored. 

What message would you want to give to fans who are on the fence, maybe been to a couple of games, but are swithering on whether they want to come back?

People wanted change at the club. They told us they wanted change, they physically demonstrated that they wanted it to change. They wanted a different culture, a different approach, different communications, a whole raft of changes. 

They wanted a change at the top and I would argue that they've had that. It's been many, many months since I've been asked the question, but I have full responsibility for the club. I think people don't ask me that question any longer because it's pretty self-evident. 

People asked for that change. If you don't want to come back until we're promoted then that's entirely your prerogative. Everyone has free will, everyone can choose what they want to do.

I would say, if you can, in whatever way it is, be part of it now, play your part now. If it's only in a small way we'd be grateful for it. If it's in a big way, then all the better. 

I look forward to coming in every day. Every day there's a new challenge. Every day there's something to build upon for the game coming towards us. We have a strong reporting structure, not overloading people, but we understand the different elements of the different departments that we work within and how they overlap. We have a Hibs Kids day coming up on the 17th October, and we'll work hard to make sure that's a great Hibs Kids day.

Hopefully that'll mean the kids and their parents will have a brilliant day that day and we'll get the result we want, but it'll not just be about coming in with your ticket and going to a kiosk or whatever, we'll create events round about it. 

We don't use the stadium well enough on a match day. There could be great fan environments, great fan zones around it, there  could be interesting interactions for the supporters. 

People could come to the stadium earlier and use it in a different way. We have the motivation to do that, but you can divert your attention away and we want to focus on getting promoted. 

There's things that we are doing now that if we were in the Premier League we'd probably do them slightly different but we're focussing everything, a lot of our energies on the first team, focussed on the performance of the first team, that group in here and how we connect with the supporters. 

The work that has been done with the first team, the work that's been done with the academy, the new recruitment structures, the people working for the club, the renewed relationships with boy's clubs - the amateur game in Edinburgh is great - we've gone from something like 0.1% community activity at the training centre to almost 50/50, in fact maybe higher than that now. 

That has no impact on the elite side of things, they still get everything that they need, and everything that they should get. It also means that facility is doing everything that it should be doing for the wider community. 

This is what we're striving for, because it's hard to pick up new supporters. There's Netflix, Amazon Prime, PS4, 3D TV's, football happens live and it happens in a stadium and I want more people to figure that one out and get themselves down here. 

 

I'd like to thank Leeann Dempster and Colin Millar for helping make these interviews happen. 

Changing Times: Stephen Dunn

In the third of my series of interviews looking at life at Hibernian since the protests against Rod Petrie last summer, I spent some time with Stephen Dunn, who is a Director of Hibernian Supporters Limited, and recently re-joined the Board of Directors at Hibernian in a Non-Exec capacity. This interview took place just before Hibs' win over Raith Rovers at Easter Road in August.

How happy have you been with the response to HSL so far?

Absolutely fine, we're very pleased so far. We kicked off in the first week of February and had a nice lump of folk early on supporting it, and we've had steady growth right throughout the summer.

The first six months we passed the 900 mark. The membership grows when something significant happens - we get a signing- we get 10 - 15 folk joining; Alan Stubbs re-signing - we got a lump.
So as a board at HSL, we're very pleased and now it's about driving forward and getting more people to join.

What challenges have you had to overcome since launch?

I suppose the biggest challenge was the impact of events here from 12 months ago. Relegation is never an easy thing, those things stick in the minds of supporters, of everybody. 
We pushed against that, we pushed against the protests that were out there, so when we launched - was it a perfect time to launch? No. Is there ever a perfect time to launch? No, we just launched and once it was launched a lot of the protests and a lot of the concerns started to fade away because we started to answer the questions directly and honestly.

The way it's set up is very simple, we're not a protest group.We collect fans' money to buy shares, period. That's it. So as soon as we get money we have an exclusive subscription for shares with the club. We write to the club and say 'here's some money.', they write back saying 'here's a share certificate.'. Simple as that.

That simplicity of message made it easier as the months go on. Do you make mistakes, yes, we make mistakes. The admin system - does it work? Well there's seven of us, and probably three of us do most of the admin work.

At 55 I was introduced to Twitter and Facebook and stuff like that having never done it in my life, I've got a wee Facebook page that I do for the theatre but only for a few friends, you know - nobody reads it.
So, for me to be introduced to that was quite daunting and we made some mistakes, as you do. But as we went on people began to forgive us a bit more, people began to see when we handed money over and the club were beginning to sign players, and sign players early in early August soon after the season finished, that we were beginning to make an impact. So the winds against us faded a bit.

We also started to play good football again, and fans were beginning to see what was happening with the club, within the football operations what Alan was trying to achieve, and what Leeann, and George and the rest of the board were trying to achieve. They could see there was something in this.

Was it problematical? Not really. Were they heavy winds? Not really. Fans were beginning to see progress behind the scenes and on the park.

I remember early on especially on social media, a campaign against HSL, with talk of ponzi schemes and things like that. How damaging do you think that was?

There's an old saying in marketing that any publicity is good publicity. First of all it's not a ponzi scheme, absolutely not, so while you may feel personally insulted you have to let it go past you.

Sometimes the people that shout the loudest get heard, but the longer you go at it, the more consistent your message is, the more honest your message is, the more people believe you.

We focussed not on retaliating, but on our core messages - you give us money, we buy shares, the more shares we buy, the more control we get in the club. We focussed more on our message than what was said elsewhere.

How would you sum up how the benefits of HSL to the club?

Well the money goes directly to the club, firstly. If you look at other clubs, putting Hearts aside for a minute, because they deserve special mention, but at other clubs where there are similar schemes they're going into the market to buy shares from people who own shares. 

That means that the money goes to the people that own the shares and not necessarily to the football club.

The simple thing we have is we're buying shares directly from the club, so all the money bar a maximum of £2 administration fee from Go Cardless who do the banking side for us, goes directly to the football club, and that translates to known budgets, certainty for the manager and Leeann, so if they know they're getting an amount of money from us each month for a year and beyond then they can budget more appropriately
.
That's why, and I'm not saying it was all credit to us, they were able to sign players early, because they knew what the budget was going to be. There was a certainty about the money coming in not just from within the operations of the football club but through HSL and the wider share issue.

At one of the recent Working Together groups, Leeann presented a message about fan ownership. The big selling point has been about signing players, but do you think there's scope to push the fan ownership benefit?

We actually banged on about it, the social media is one avenue, but we found early on that you only get to a limited audience on social media.

Jim Adie used the phrase 'boots on the ground' and we started going along to the associations, talked directly to associations and fans along with Leeann etc, and we talked about not setting targets but there are hurdles. The first hurdle is 20% ownership because that gets us a seat on the board, the next hurdle is 25.1% because that gives you, negatively called, a blocking vote, but the board have to consider our view and can't just railroad something through.

We've tried to emphasise that, but emphasise it in a positive way rather than 'this is a blocking vote' because we have to work with the club to put the best product on the park, which is what it's all about.

So yes, we'll continue to do that but it's easier to do face to face than sitting on a website, or twitter, or a blog or whatever. We've got just over seven and a half thousand season tickets, and thirteen hundred likes or tweets or whatever. 

So that means we're not getting to people who could join up and those are the ones we need to target, we need to get a way of targeting them.

That's just one message, the big positive message is that the more money we can pass to the club, the better the product is.

How has the reaction to the 'boots on the ground' approach been?
It's been good, you do get people still doubting, still saying 'we're not coming back until certain things change.' and I always say that we have no responsibility over that.

Our job is to raise money and buy shares,and if you want rid of anybody then the more shares, the more control, and if we get to 51% then we have control of the board.

Generally it's been favourable. I give great credit for this to Jim Adie. He felt that we could say things on Twitter and Facebook and it wouldn't really address directly some of the issues that were being heard against us.

Face to face we could look people in the eye and say 'That is wrong. You are wrong, this is what we're trying to achieve and this how we're trying to do it.' Whether they were converted or not, it doesn't really matter. What does matter was that we had credibility.

We went along en mass, the entire board - unless Charlie (Reid)was away touring - we went and spoke passionately as Hibs supporters first, then as HSL Board Directors, and we appealed our facts, and the simplicity of our message. And this did have an effect
.
One of the big boosts was St Pats joining, was the Australian branch joining, was the Hibs Supporters Association actually joining and giving us a major contribution, and that gives us a real credibility amongst the fans, and that's how it's gone.

I saw some opposition to HSL from St Pats' members early on on hibs.net, it must have been a big boost to get them onboard given their influence?

It was a key one, people are allowed to have their opinion, nobody's saying they can't have an opinion. All we ask is that if they don't like it that they don't interfere with it.

We just ask for a fair hearing and a fair chance, and the ability to put the right answers to some of the questions that have been asked, but if people don't want to join, they don't want to join.
The same with fan ownership. Some people will want it, some people won't, it's as simple as that. 

With the ownership comes responsibility, which brings us back to Hearts. Their supporters have embraced the responsibility of funding their football club. £140,000 a month they're putting into the football club through the Foundation of Hearts, and that's just to run it, that's not getting them shares. 

That responsibility of ownership means you might be asked for more money in the future. I'm a believer in the democracy of fans having a greater say in the club and indeed ownership, but it's up to the fans to decide whether they want to do it or not. You can't ask that question of HSL, you have to ask the fans and then listen to the answer.

How much has HSL put to the club so far?

In terms of money going in, it's £150,000 for the first six months, that figure broadly doubles over the next six month, so looking at £250,000-£300,000 ,which is new money, which is the key point.

It's not recycled money from season tickets or walk-ups, it's new money. Fans have put their hands in their pockets and it's new money that we've not had before. And if we keep growing then that money continues to grow.

It's a virtuous cycle for the club because it's new money coming in and it allows them to think about 'well, that would have been our player budget last year and the year before , but we didn't have this money, so it's now that plus the new money.' So that's the tangible benefit that HSL has had in the club.

I also think we've had some involvement in turning some of the negativity around a bit. I think the club has worked hard, I know Leeann and the comms team -  Colin Millar particularly, worked hard meeting the fans and answering very plainly some of the concerns either through the website or in meetings.

I think we've also had some of the responsibility for changing some of the attitudes. Some you'll never change, that's life. So those two things, money and the changing face of the fans' opinions about the club.

If we can talk about you now, you were a former board member and have re-joined - what happened there?

I was a board member after we were relegated last time, so perhaps they feel I might have some skills at Championship football. Last time I was book-ended by Alex McLeish and Tony Mowbray, and that was a particularly big change in the club as well. People tend to forget those days.Some of the fan opinions were just as vocal, and some of the protests just as hard as in the last year.

I did, I think, seven or eight years. I'm a great believer that if you stay too long, you're no longer independent, and one of the key roles of the Non-Exec is to be independent, and to be able to support and challenge the Executive to say "Are you doing the right things, is this the right way?"

That first period, for me,  there came a point where you weren't really making the difference that you should be making, so I left the board at that time. I had a period off, my wife unfortunately died, she'd been ill for a long time, all these things come together, so in 2007 when I left the board, I had a nice long period in between. I continued to come to games, I continued to support the club, I continued to do things for the club in the background.

I'm a do-er, the way it came about was that the board decided well before Leeann actually arrived at the football club, that things needed to change. They saw it. They could see the way it was going, and then relegation happened.

So they'd already decided that structurally the club needed to change, they needed supporters back on board  somehow, and part of that was the appointment of Leeann. 

Leeann brought along an agenda - a very good agenda, and transformed football operations at the club. There was already a view about a flotation, a share issue, before Leeann came. Regulations changed, we got relegated, things were put on the back-burner a bit. There was the BuyHibs initiative out there, and what eventually became HSL was out there. Around about October/November last year, I was approached to see if I could be a bridge between the club and the people behind the original HSL stuff, including Jim Adie.

I said 'Of course, I'll do that', the birth of HSL came about that Christmas. I acted as the middle-man to get Jim and the people behind his initiative to sit down with the club, and then just do what I do which was to drive things until they actually start.

During the course of that period I might have succeeded a bit, and having the experience I know how the football club operates and I think that was an important factor. I know how things get done at the club and the nuances and the likes, even though there's a lot of changes. 

That was useful from an HSL perspective and then Rod, as Chairman, said it might be a good idea if I came back on board.

With six/seven years more experience of business, my kind of view of the club had changed, and I felt I was more independent, I was able to really question some of the things being done. Also the experiences and learning of that '98-2006 period directly related to some of the things being done today.

The history of the club I know inside out, with the work with Tom Wright and the Historical Trust allowed me to say "Before you do that, you might want to think about this." So I think they found that quite valuable. 

I also retired from work, I'm not that old but I was in a position where I could stop work, so I'm at the club at least two or three days a week helping directly, so they thought I would be useful sitting on the Board as well, so that's how it came about.

How have you found it since?
It's like it was, I remember my first game I attended as a director originally, was Greenock Morton, and the responsibility hits you as you walk out onto that deck. There's lots of good ones, the 6-2, the Millennium derby, but you feel the full weight of every goal against you as a Board Director, but it's a challenge, and I like a challenge. 

The club's done lots of things right, and I think in amongst all the noise that's been out there in the last two or three years, people have forgotten that there are a lot of things right at this football club and it just needs a few things to put it on the right path again.

That challenge I really enjoy. I enjoy my football, and that challenge of helping this great club get back to where it should be is something that excites me, and I love it. And of course, being on this board with Frank is a great honour.(Said as Frank Dougan entered the room!). 

What message would you have for anyone thinking about getting on board with HSL?
It's quite simple - join if you can. I do actually mean if you can, we don't want to be irresponsible and ask people for money that they can't afford. We do realise that people, supporters, buy season tickets, buy tickets, buy merchandise, and in reality spend proportionately a lot of money on Hibs. 

Buy if you can, not only are you helping the football operation but you're helping create a bigger group with a bigger percentage in the club. It's a bit like a trade union, there's a power in togetherness. 

It's the same with the football club, if we're all going in the same direction it's more powerful.

HSL, the more members we get, the more shares we get, the more voice we get. But don't be irresponsible, let's be clear about that.

The message for me, is this is a great club. Football's cyclical. There's another team of eleven men out there trying to beat you so can't guarantee anything. But what I've seen, in the time I've been back, is a restructure of the football operation, better use of the training facilities, signing players to a structure that Alan wants to have in here, and putting in place a football operation so that when Alan inevitably leaves to go to another football club, it's easier to bring someone else in and that whole operation is maintained. 

That's all the great things that are already here, and to be part of that is wonderful, and HSL is a big part in that, so please get on board. 

I would like to thank all at Hibernian FC for their time with the interviews, and especially Frank Dougan, Amit Moudgil, Stephen Dunn, and Colin Millar for arranging them.

Changing Times : Amit Moudgil

This is the second part of my series of blogs looking at the inside perspective of life at Hibernian FC since the protests against Rod Petrie at Easter Road in the summer of 2014.

Since then, Leeann Dempster has made several sweeping changes at the football club, including appointing two supporter-elected representatives onto the board of Directors. I had some time with one of those Directors, Amit Moudgil, ahead of Hibs' 2-0 win, where he gave me some insight into his role and what changes he's seen at Easter Road since coming on board.

Tell me about your experience in the role so far.

It's been great, it's been an eye-opener, it's been exciting, it's been challenging. Hard work, as well. It's been excellent - I've really enjoyed it. Above all, it's been an absolute privilege, as a supporter when you go from sitting in your seat to coming in to help, taking that view that you and your pals have sitting next to each other and everyone else that's sat round the table talking about Hibs and being able to do something with that is really powerful for the fans, so it's been great. 

How have you gone about doing that?

I've tried to be as inventive as possible. I've tried to make myself as accessible as possible and as open as possible to people, so attending various meetings, whether it was Working Together - and I'll be the first to admit that I'd never attended a Working Together meeting before joining the board, not because I didn't want to but because I didn't really know what it was about. I started to attend them when I came onto the board and it quickly became apparent that the format had lost its way a bit and needed to be refreshed, so a few of us got together and drew up a battle plan to re-energise that whole thing.
For me, up until the relegation season loads of folk felt they had been grinded down and grinded down by just what's gone on in the last seven or eight years at the club. You can understand why people are staying away because there were so many more reasons not to come to the football club than there were to come to the football club. 
Towards the end of last year I had a meeting with George Craig - for about four hours - about how to raise funds for the Academy, but it turned out in the end that I took on a volunteer job with Graeme Mathie with the recruitment side of things - so co-ordinating scouts, and I'm still doing that today on a weekly basis.
We revamped the whole structure. Towards the end of last year, there weren't enough people, there was myself doing 13's to 17's, co-ordinating eight scouts trying to cover as many games as possible. It was very difficult. 
With the goodwill towards the club we've been able to bring in more people and that's helped me fall back in love with the club, and I felt re-energising Working Together and getting people to get involved with the workstreams and groups would get them to fall back in love with the club, too.
That's just one thing, another thing is being more visible on match days. I go to the Hibs Club before and after games, just walking around speaking to people I've never spoken to.
 I'm a confident guy so I don't feel nervous talking to people I don't know. If I'm up at the bar I'll end up chatting to someone in the queue and I'll ask if I can sit with them. It's never a problem, they really enjoy it.
They don't know who I am, I came from nowhere in the Hibs community, really. I only went with my own group of friends so it's really good to get out there and chat to people who might not have seen me round the Hibs Club before. It's good now, I've started to recognise people and they recognise me. They think it's brilliant having a Director coming to chat to people in the Hibs Club. For me, I just like to talk about Hibs, and as Hibs supporters we could do that all day. I don't think anyone would tire of that. 
I'll do walkarounds in Behind the Goals or in the stands. Today I'll sit in my own seat in the East, I still have my season ticket and just because I have a seat here (in the West) every week,it doesn't mean I want to use it. 
For me, importantly, the big change is I attend more away games. I'm probably not alone in that, a lot of people who'd go to away games would go in big groups. A lot of my friends couldn't afford to go every week, so we'd plan a few away games throughout the season. It'd be the usual, Aberdeen away or ones where you had good memories from the day out and the trip.So now, I try to go to as many away games as I can.
First and foremost I still want to get the experience, the reason I put myself forward is that I wanted to take these supporter views and put them forward at board level,  but I think you also have to understand what your role is.
You can't just think 'I'm a supporter', you have to think 'I'm a supporter but my responsibility to take your view and everyone else that is there, what are these people worrying about?'. 
So I've tried a 'Director on the bus' thing, where I travel on the buses, I'll pick a different bus every week to go to games, so I've got a captive audience for an hour or however long the trip is. I just walk up and down the bus, chat to people. I'm all club-tied up so for me, because I'm not as well know as Frank, for example, in the wider Hibs community, it's important for me to be recognised as someone who's representing the fans at the club.
It's been really good, really great, and if they've got a bowling club that they go to before the game, then I'll go there as well, and I'll sit and have a juice with them as well. For me, it's about bonding, and listening to them, the people that go to away games might not go to the Hibs Club every week, it's about being as accessible as possible, and that's what I've been trying to do.
Then online as well, it's difficult, I can't be on hibs.net or the bounce or wherever every day, I have an app on my phone if I'm on the bus on my way to work, or have a bit of time  I can just get through what's going on, particularly if people have sent me messages or highlighted my name.
I try my best to be wherever I can, I have to try and go to the people, and be their conduit, so I need to allow them the opportunity to speak to me.

What would you say have been your successes since coming on board?

Working Together has been a huge success, I stood at one of the meetings and spoke to Greig Mailer after a few meetings and said we had to change it. We wanted people to fall back in love with the club again, and that's what I did doing the recruitment work with Graeme Mathie, George Craig and Eddie May. 
You don't know how powerful that is, to fall back in love with the club again. It allows you then to get over the hard days, maybe Stranraer midweek where we won the game but people came away thinking 'we could have done a lot better there.' I think, for me, falling back in love with the club allows you to bear those little dips when they happen.
So I think that's been one, but generally just getting about hearing different people's views. I have listened to a lot of people who I might never have spoken to or had a reason to speak to,  now I feel I have a responsibility to do that.
One success is that more people are feeding in to me so I get a much better idea of exactly what their view is. It doesn't matter if you're a Hibs fan on this scale or that scale, a pessimist or an optimist, the guy that goes to every game and the guy that goes to no games. I'll keep in touch with folk that don't go to games and that's just as important. The success has been trying to bring people back together. I have one mate who's so stubborn about not wanting to come back and we've got a Whatsapp group and I just continually work on him.
I guess other successes, even before I was on the board, is revamping the structure for scouting for the youth academy. So we have a new set-up where I'm a sort of administrator and I have three folk that feed in to me, and we've split in such a way where there's not such a work load on myself.
I have my own job that I do 9-5, average 40 hours a week, have to do the board stuff and this stuff, so doing these things that I'm working on but I think the success is being able to deliver on what I think I'm meant to be doing. 
I think in a year's time if I'm not re-elected or if don't choose to be re-elected then I can hold my head high and say that I've genuinely tried to make myself as available as possible. 
Social media is something that I had went off, I had moved into a new role and thought social media was quite a dangerous place to be. I wanted to be more client-facing so had a bit of a cleanse, there wasn't anything controversial or anything, I think it was just a case of I wasn't on Facebook, I wasn't on Twitter, but what I've now done purely because I need to be an avenue for all supporters whether you're old or young or social media savvy or not, I need to be available. 
I think my biggest success has been getting out there and listening to people, going to the people - I think that's important. I might sit next to someone today in the stand but it might not be the best time  for them to talk to me about things. It might be that I might need to take the time to go to them and sit with them when they've got time to talk about it rather than me saying 'well it's convenient for me to sit in my seat and listen to you even though you might not want me to sit here asking questions.' 
For me, it's important and the success is going there and it shows people you care about their opinion. At Dumbarton away, I sat next to this guy and he sent me a message afterwards - I didn't know his name on the messageboards - he said it was so refreshing that you can just sit there and hear about what's going on at the club and give feedback. 
For me, I'm as passionate as the next guy but that doesn't mean I shouldn't listen to the next guy. I should listen to everyone. For me that's the biggest success, and really participating in the board meetings. I might be the youngest guy on the board, I might be the guy who's not as well known as everyone else on the board but I think that by the time I do leave I'm pretty sure I'll leave my mark in the boardroom and they'll know exactly where I'm coming from. 
I'm not one of these guys that's easily phased at all. Age, experience, it doesn't matter to me, I'm a clever guy I know exactly how to get people's opinions across in the right way so that they're heard correctly. Some people think that if they rant and rave, or if they talk quietly - they think they're both powerful in their own way and you can take those messages and ensure they're both heard. 

How did you find that first board meeting that you had?

I was excited. In the industry I've worked in for nine and a half years, and for the last six years I do a lot of client meetings. On the Wednesday before the Stranraer game I was in Glasgow presenting to fifty clients as one of the key presenters. Those situations don't phase me, I maybe get excited more than anything else, there's a wee bit nerves, but the first time I went in, the first thing I thought was that I had preconceptions and I wondered 'what are they going to be like?' 
Actually, to be honest there were people on the board that I had no idea who they were. I genuinely had no idea of their background, didn't know what they did. There were only a couple that I knew of or knew what they did, so it was interesting. 
After about five/ten minutes it felt like most meetings that I've been in, albeit more interesting because it was about Hibs and about football, but then again I treated it like any other meeting that I've been in. I treated it with respect and importance, and with responsibility that I have.
I'm one of these guys that as a board member I need to be responsible, so you get all the board papers the day before so I went through all of those, tried not to leave any stone unturned, and if there's a question, I'll ask that question.
It was exciting, I went in and I thought "Wow, this is actually happening.", but for me, that went away very quickly because it's not about me, it's  about everybody, It's about every Hibs fan that talks to me or gets in touch with me, or I read about or see what they're saying, like your blog or Jamie Montgomery's blog, or anyone that's doing stuff.
It very quickly comes down to me being able to fulfil that purpose and ensure that no matter what decisions are being made that I'm making them with a more informed point of view than some of the other directors, because they're putting in from their own expertise, mine and Frank's expertise is to be the voice of the fans, and we need to have that voice heard in the boardroom, so we need to know exactly what the fans want. 
To be fair, we are heard. There are no issues. Everyone's driving in the same direction. People are aware that the club is working very much together and it's all very positive. 
Don't get me wrong, there are hard times when you come out and see the hard work that you do and it's maybe not reflected on the park or it's not happening on the stands, but do you know what, that's something that we need to deal with as a club and it's for us to drive that, we have to make people want to come back.

How much has your role improved the connection between the support and the club?

I would say, if I only talk about my own friends here as an example and it'd probably reverberate throughout all my experiences, and you've got to remember I'm talking to people I've never spoken to before and I'm talking to them  for the first time, so first impressions count and it's not like I'm there saying things just to flatter people, it's straight from the heart because it's about us and the way I feel about the club. 
I think I've genuinely made a good... a better bond, even guys in my smaller group, it was them that I looked to before I joined. I said "Guys, I'm falling back in love with the club, doing this stuff with Graeme, this opportunity has come up to do something with the board, do you think I should go for it?", and they said "Amit you're definitely the right guy for it, you've got this, this, and this, you should go for it. We think you can be the person for the voice." 
If folk on my Whatsapp group are feeling down I'll come on and say a few things, and one of the guys will turn round and say 'That's why you are where you are, because you've got to look at the big picture.'
It's hard to see beyond16:45 on a Saturday, but when you let the dust settle, and what you say and what you'll achieve with what you're doing that's going to allow people to see exactly that there might be a disappointment there, but there are amazing things happening at the club that you know a little bit about, but I can see all the things happening and when you see these things in totality you can see it's like a huge wave of change coming along. 
That's just the feedback from my friends. Having a bit of feedback from people on the bus before games, or in the Hibs Club, or on Twitter, an email, someone will just say "That was really good, it's great to have someone on board who's making the effort."
You've got to go out and do it, it's not just Amit going out and going to the games. I thought I'd only wear a suit five days a week for my job, but I feel really proud going out my house with the club tie on.

What would you say to supporters who are maybe reluctant to come back?

I don't want this to be a big one, I want to let this one resonate.  I would say that the past is the past, we can't change that. We've all been there, we've all been hurt. There's things that we've all not been happy about, but if you speak to someone who's going to games regularly, or has contact with the club, if they're coming to Working Together or doing something of their own accord, you are the people that can deliver that message. Look, come back and see that it's night and day. I'll ask people when was the last time Hibs had a side that was nearly the same core as the season before?
It's always been change, and change, and change. That's just one small thing. Most people who go to a game, one game, or even read about that, you can see that we've managed to hold on to someone or bring in other players. 
Give the club a chance, that's just one thing. Come along and speak to us at the club, it's a far more open door policy. It's our club, we decide what we want to do with it, if you want to come and back it, then come and do it. I can understand that there are people who have their reasons not to, but I'll do my best to convince them that there are more reasons to come back than not to.

Many thanks again to Amit, Frank Dougan, Stephen Dunn, and Colin Millar for their time.

Changing Times : Frank Dougan

It has been around fourteen months since angry Hibernian fans gathered outside the West Stand at Easter Road to protest against Rod Petrie's involvement with the club. Hibs had just been relegated after an appalling run under then-manager Terry Butcher, and the club was at its lowest ebb in many years.

While the protesters made their feeling known, inside Easter Road Leeann Dempster - Hibernian's newly appointed Chief Exec - met with a group of supporters to introduce herself and to try and convey what she was hoping to achieve at Hibernian.

Since then, the 'wind of change' has swept through Easter Road. A new regime is in place, Butcher has been replaced by Alan Stubbs and his coaching team, the youth set up has altered, and Hibs recruited a 'Head of Football Operations' in George Craig as the whole club was shaken up.

Hibs finished second in the league last season, reaching the quarter finals of the League Cup, and the semi-finals of the Scottish Cup in the process. Although promotion eluded them, it is a very different Hibernian that you see today, to the one that slumped to play-off defeat against Hamilton to find themselves relegated.

I have been fortunate enough to have been given access to some of the Hibernian staff to explore how the club has changed in their eyes since Leeann Dempster took charge.

The first of this series of blogs is an interview with Frank Dougan, who was elected onto the Board of Directors as a supporters' representative, along with Amit Moudgil.

I had met Frank before, but had never taken the opportunity to have any kind of conversation with him, and so I was really interested to get to know Frank better and to understand more about his views on the club. You can tell within minutes of talking to him just how passionate Frank is about Hibernian, and it's not hard to understand why he was elected to the role by his fellow supporters. If you cut Frank, he'd bleed green, and his desire to see Hibs back where they belong was evident throughout the interview.

Now you've had a chance to get your feet under the table in your role, tell me about the experience so far.
The experience has been fantastic, bar the football. Nothing has been held back,and we've been told every single thing. I try to get to all the games, the only one I don't get to is Tynecastle - but that's a long story. I don't like sitting in the director's box, to be honest I prefer sitting amongst the fans and I try to do that as much as possible. I'm there for anyone that wants to speak to me. I get a lot of good suggestions, a lot of criticism as well, but the majority is positive. When people are face to face it's positive. Keyboard warriors really do worry me, there's people out there with an agenda and it doesn't matter what Hibs do, they're going to criticise. If we're winning the Premiership - why are we not winning by more points, if we score ten goals and concede one, it's why did we concede one. It doesn't matter, they have a negative agenda and they're not prepared to do anything, and that really worries me.

How damaging do you think those people are?
I think at the moment they're quite damaging because we've not got off to the best start this season, but I can categorically assure you that people like Alan Stubbs, George Craig, and Graeme Mathie, are working so, so hard to find players to bring in, and it's not easy. There's a budget. We have to realise that there's a budget and the only way to increase that budget is for people to turn up. When I look at last season I had four criteria. First and foremost I wanted to see us sign better players, well we've done that. Second I wanted to see us play better football - well that wouldn't be hard, but we've done that. Third,  I wanted to see us get to the play-offs, and we did. And fourth I wanted decent runs in the cup, which we did. I know we got to a semi final and a quarter final, and the two games against Falkirk and Dundee United I thought we played well and were unlucky in both games. We finished second in the league, we were second top scorers. I thought we did ok. I can't understand why people don't turn up to the games and that frustrates me. 

I asked that question through pre-season on hibs.net - what would make people come back? Why do you think some people are hesitant to back the team? 
There's 1300 people who haven't renewed from last season, and we're actually up on season ticket numbers overall, so why are these people not coming back? I was one of the people that phoned round and yes, there were half a dozen people who had a brother that wasn't well, or were moving to Canada. One guy had just had a baby so couldn't afford it - he's still going to come just not as often. I can understand that. But not to the extent of what we are, surely if you bought a season ticket last year, you got it when we were relegated but you'll not get one this year? Alright we're in the same division but we're seeing better football, more attacking football. Seeing the football that I love, that I was brought up on. And people are using excuses like Rod Petrie's still there, Tom Farmer's still there - I'm sorry but it's so petty. The changes in the club since Leeann Dempster came, and don't forget, Rod Petrie and Tom Farmer built the stadium - not them personally, but they made it happen. We've got the stadium, we've got the training facilities. I'm not singing their praises because I think there's been a lot of bad management in the past, and I'm not saying they're not responsible for bad decisions. Don't forget that Rod Petrie brought in Leeann last February, and she's been a breath of fresh air.  One of the things I said to Leeann at the tail end of last season when she stood up for the club against the SFA for the play-off prices, and cut the Rangers' allocation - it was really good. 

What's your background as a Hibs fan?
My great grandfather was one of the members of the CYMS that founded Hibs, he wasn't part of the Hibs team, but he was part of the Catholic Young Men's Society that founded Hibernian Football Club. My great-grandfather, my grandfather, my father, my brothers, my nephews. There's no choice. My first Hibs game - I was 18 months old. My mother was heavily pregnant with my brother and my father was told to look after me, so he took me to Easter Road. We beat Partick 2-1, not that I remember anything of the game. The first time I can remember crying my eyes out at Hampden at the 58 Cup Final against Clyde. I thought all we had to do was turn up to beat them. We got beat 1-0, my dad told me at that point "Don't worry, there's plenty time, we'll win it one day." Now, my dad's been dead a number of years and he never saw it. I just hope that one day...

How much of a challenge did you find it moving from a prominent supporter role to the board?
I found it quite easy, actually. I was quite vocal when I was Treasurer for the Hibs Supporters Club, I was Spokesman for the Hibs Supporter's Association. There was a lot of controversy over that period and I stood up for what I thought was right. The one thing I never did, and would never do, is do the dirty washing about Hibs in public. I've had my discussions with Mr Farmer and Mr Petrie in the past, and some of the discussions have been quite volatile, and I don't see that changing. If I think it's wrong, I'll state it. I'm happy to go along with what I'm seeing at the moment because what I'm seeing - the vast majority of what I'm seeing, is very positive, even if some fans don't always see it.

Where any of your pre-conceptions about the club altered when you saw it up close?
Not really, because I've always been close to the club. I was involved with Club 86, then the Hibernians after that, then the Historical Trust when it started up. Plus the fact that I've known a lot of people, I've always been fortunate to be friendly with players, likes of Pat Stanton, Jimmy O'Rourke, Eric Schaedler, Alex Cropley, John Blackley, John Brownley, I grew up with these boys,  I used to go on nights out with them, over the years I've been lucky enough to know them. Even people like Paul Kane and George Stewart - I've known them all. Mickey Weir and Keith Wright, been to weddings and Christenings and that sort of thing, so I've been lucky and had an insight into what's happened at the club through them. I was very much on the periphery but I was very hands on with Hands Off Hibs.

So you came in with your eyes open, have there been any surprises?
The amount of work that goes on behind the scenes outside of the football. There's an awful lot of work goes on and it's so positive. What I can see has been achieved in the last year. I mean Cecil Graham, when he ran the club - and he did run the club on his own - now you look at the staff and it's phenomenal, and that's the business. When you look at the stadium, it's used 90 hours a year - or it was, now you see the work to generate more money through it's usage, and it has to happen. 

How would you describe the progress since Leeann came in?
Fantastic, absolutely fantastic, it took Leeann to come on board for the club to stand up for itself. She's been a total, total breath of fresh air, a total change of direction. Bringing in Alan Stubbs, George Craig, Graeme Mathie, all the people behind the scenes Joe McBride for the under 20's, Eddie May running the Academy. All these people have made a big, big difference. Unfortunately there had to be a clear out to allow these people to come in, and Leeann's facilitated that.

How do you see your role developing?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if there's a winning team on the park nobody gives a monkey's who's a Director. I'd like to think that's the case. All of us as Directors have to make it so that everything for the manager or head coach and his staff is in place. If that's generating money that's what we need to do. As far as the football - I'm a fan, a fanatic, however you want to put it. I just want to see the football and whatever I can do to help the coaches achieve that goal, I'll do it. I'll do anything and everything I can to support that.

What would you say to fans that are hesitant to come back?
The only way that this club is going to go forward is for these fans to come back. It's so easy to criticise but if you do that there's no point. The only way you're going to change it is from the inside, not the out. The only way we can do that is people turning  up. If they're not turning up, then don't slag them, don't be a keyboard warrior. Also you don't have to turn up every week, you can buy into HSL, buy shares, all that money's going into Hibs. I wouldn't be here if I thought for one minute that money wasn't going to the manager, and that's something that's got to be achieved. Give the team a chance, the more people that come, the better it is, the more money we have to buy better players, to keep players. The board have bent over backwards to back the manager. 

Frank took time at the end of the interview to ask me to convey his thanks to the Hibernian Disabled Supporter's Association for involving him in their meetings, and to pass on his praise for the great work that they're doing.

I'd also like to thank Colin Millar, Frank Dougan, Amit Moudgil, and Stephen Dunn for their time and patience in making these interviews happen.

So a Season Starts..

Hibernian bounced back from a tumultuous couple of weeks with a comfortable League Cup win against Montrose on Saturday. Hibs haven't had their troubles to seek over the last fortnight, fending off Rangers in their bid to lure Scott Allan west in the week leading up to their embarrassing 2-6 defeat to the Glasgow side in the Petrofac Training Cup.

Despite Hibs' repeated assertions that Allan would not be sold to Rangers, a second bid was received and promptly rejected, with rumblings of a third bid continuing to populate the sports press in Scotland, although Rangers manager Mark Warburton has himself refused to confirm any third bid.

The issue clearly had an impact on Hibs, Allan started that match on the bench, leaving an already depleted side further weakened. Allan came on in the second half to replace Jordon Forster, who appeared to have been injured following a late challenge, and although individually Allan's performance was positive, the side collapsed as Rangers ran rampant.

If that was a week to forget for Hibs, the gloom continued into the following week when Allan handed in a written transfer request, which was subsequently rejected by Leeann Dempster and Alan Stubbs. Hibs, it would be fair to say, came out swinging with some bold, chest-thumping statements making clear their position that they were not prepared to weaken their own side at the Ibrox's side benefit.

Hibs' response has largely found favour amongst their own supporters. For too long, the Hibs support have seen their best talent moved on, only to be replaced by players of an inferior quality. It is not an approach that has served the football club well, and resulted in a steady downward trajectory from the high point of their CIS Insurance Cup win back in 2007.

The digging in of the heels and steadfast refusal to buckle under intense pressure was another positive indication that Dempster and Stubbs are doing more than just paying lip-service towards Hibs' promotion aspirations this season. Prior to the Allan saga, Hibs movements in the transfer market had been positive, the signing of Fraser Fyvie represented a real coup for the club as Fraser is undoubtedly well equipped to perform in the Scottish Premiership, and there was interest from several clubs eager to bring him on board. Yet he chose Hibernian, clearly sold on the ambition of Stubbs and Dempster. The signing of James Keatings from city rivals Hearts was as surprising as it was welcome, and was a further sign that Hibs are building a strong squad for the coming campaign.

The charm offensive has continued following the rejection of Allan's transfer request, as Hibs have sought to regain the positivity that was engulfing the club prior to Rangers' approach for Allan. A contract extension for Alan Stubbs and his coaching team was warmly welcomed by the support, and this was followed by the announcement that former St Mirren player, and Scotland Under-21 star, John McGinn had signed, with Hibs having met St Mirren's valuation of the player with the minimum of fuss or fanfare. McGinn had a number of options both at home and abroad, so his signing again represents tangible evidence that Dempster's priorities lie firmly in giving Alan Stubbs the best possible chance of returning Hibernian to the top flight of Scottish football.

Any decision to sell Allan to Rangers would have been preposterous, the notion that Hibs would risk their own title aspirations to enhance those of the club seen as their main title rivals is ridiculous. Simply put, had Hibs agreed to the move, the steady trickle of season ticket renewals would likely have halted at that point, and the good feeling that Dempster has worked tirelessly to bring to the support would have evaporated, with any trust being promptly lost.

Instead, Hibs have played their hand well, and can hopefully turn the situation to their advantage. Hibs are expected to announce the signings of Keith Watson and former Rangers youth player Rhys McCabe  in the coming days if rumours are to be believed, and if Dempster and Stubbs can continue to demonstrate the link between supporters backing the club and the club being able to do such business, then they may find that the steady season ticket trickle turns into a healthy flow of renewals and new take-ups.

Stubbs deserves a mention at this point for how he has handled Scott Allan. It was right to start Allan on the bench against Rangers. Neither Allan nor Stubbs were in a position where a positive outcome was likely. Stubbs, if he had started Allan would have put the player in a position where the reactions of both sets of supporters would have caused an unwelcome distraction, and leaving him out altogether would only have fuelled the fires suggesting that the transfer was imminent.

Stubbs left Allan on the bench for the cup win against Montrose as well, and his  decision to introduce Allan midway through the second half meant that Allan's introduction into the fray was very open, very public, and invited the support to make their feelings known. The reaction was mixed, a few boos could be heard but these were largely replaced by applause, with the Easter Road faithful choosing to back rather than barrack their player. Scott's first touches on the ball were met with a similar response, though a moment of magic from the player had the Hibs support on their feet when he fired Hibs into a two goal lead. Nothing wins the fans round quicker than a good performance on the pitch.

Hibs' performance was comfortable without ever reaching the heights of some of their performances last season. New signing Marvin Bartley impressed, providing the midfield with the strong ball-winner that they missed last season. The side that finished the game had a real look of the development squad, with Stubbs using the game to blood a few youngsters, who, while playing their part in the win, still look short of the standard required to mount a title campaign at this very early stage in their careers.

Stubbs later admitted to Hibs TV that although he was pleased to be able to give some game-time to the young players, his hand had been somewhat forced with an injury list that contains the likes of Martin Boyle, Dan Carmichael, Farid El Alagui, James Keatings, Jordon Forster, and Dominique Malonga. With the Scott Allan situation depriving Stubbs of Allan's services in the early stages of the game, it left the Hibs boss with little in the way of cover.

In fairness to those that did play, they moved the ball relatively well with only occasional sloppiness in their passing. The home side, as would be expected, dominated from first whistle to last , with Montrose content to sit in and try to frustrate Stubbs' men. Scott Martin clipped home Hibs' opener, the youngster's composed finish looked more like that of an experienced first teamer than that of a young man enjoying only his second competitive start for the first team.

It was, though, the introduction of Scott Allan that lifted the Hibs side. It is not hard to understand why Rangers were so keen to secure his services, aside from what he would bring to their side, what it would take from Hibs is almost as relevant. Allan injected some pace and directness to the proceedings, picking passes that opened up the Montrose defence, and embarking on mazy runs that pulled players out of position leaving space for his colleagues to exploit.

Jason Cummings, who had led the line splendidly all afternoon, rounded off the win with a fine shot on the turn from inside the box. I felt that Cummings looked like all he had to his game was goals last season (hardly a bad thing for a striker, indeed, such a bad thing that he finished the Championship's top scorer at the tender age of 19!), however he looked stronger, fitter, and more intelligent in his play on Saturday. I was impressed with his understanding of when to come deep, and when not to. He brought others into play well, and looked for any opportunity to get a shot away.

Cummings, who was celebrating his 20th birthday, richly deserved his goal as a reward for his contribution. The goal was his second in consecutive competitive games, and few would bet against him topping the goal-scoring charts this season again.

Hibs now look forward to Saturday's league opener at Dumbarton. With a few of the injured players getting closer to match readiness, Hibs are now well equipped to mount a serious challenge to Rangers' title hopes. If Hibs can indeed keep this squad together, and get more fans back on board for the ride, then Hibs will be in a great position to put the darkness of the last couple of weeks well and truly behind them.