In the third of my series of interviews looking at life at Hibernian since the protests against Rod Petrie last summer, I spent some time with Stephen Dunn, who is a Director of Hibernian Supporters Limited, and recently re-joined the Board of Directors at Hibernian in a Non-Exec capacity. This interview took place just before Hibs' win over Raith Rovers at Easter Road in August.
How happy have you been with the response to HSL so far?
Absolutely fine, we're very pleased so far. We kicked off in the first week of February and had a nice lump of folk early on supporting it, and we've had steady growth right throughout the summer.
The first six months we passed the 900 mark. The membership grows when something significant happens - we get a signing- we get 10 - 15 folk joining; Alan Stubbs re-signing - we got a lump.
So as a board at HSL, we're very pleased and now it's about driving forward and getting more people to join.
What challenges have you had to overcome since launch?
I suppose the biggest challenge was the impact of events here from 12 months ago. Relegation is never an easy thing, those things stick in the minds of supporters, of everybody.
We pushed against that, we pushed against the protests that were out there, so when we launched - was it a perfect time to launch? No. Is there ever a perfect time to launch? No, we just launched and once it was launched a lot of the protests and a lot of the concerns started to fade away because we started to answer the questions directly and honestly.
The way it's set up is very simple, we're not a protest group.We collect fans' money to buy shares, period. That's it. So as soon as we get money we have an exclusive subscription for shares with the club. We write to the club and say 'here's some money.', they write back saying 'here's a share certificate.'. Simple as that.
That simplicity of message made it easier as the months go on. Do you make mistakes, yes, we make mistakes. The admin system - does it work? Well there's seven of us, and probably three of us do most of the admin work.
At 55 I was introduced to Twitter and Facebook and stuff like that having never done it in my life, I've got a wee Facebook page that I do for the theatre but only for a few friends, you know - nobody reads it.
So, for me to be introduced to that was quite daunting and we made some mistakes, as you do. But as we went on people began to forgive us a bit more, people began to see when we handed money over and the club were beginning to sign players, and sign players early in early August soon after the season finished, that we were beginning to make an impact. So the winds against us faded a bit.
We also started to play good football again, and fans were beginning to see what was happening with the club, within the football operations what Alan was trying to achieve, and what Leeann, and George and the rest of the board were trying to achieve. They could see there was something in this.
Was it problematical? Not really. Were they heavy winds? Not really. Fans were beginning to see progress behind the scenes and on the park.
I remember early on especially on social media, a campaign against HSL, with talk of ponzi schemes and things like that. How damaging do you think that was?
There's an old saying in marketing that any publicity is good publicity. First of all it's not a ponzi scheme, absolutely not, so while you may feel personally insulted you have to let it go past you.
Sometimes the people that shout the loudest get heard, but the longer you go at it, the more consistent your message is, the more honest your message is, the more people believe you.
We focussed not on retaliating, but on our core messages - you give us money, we buy shares, the more shares we buy, the more control we get in the club. We focussed more on our message than what was said elsewhere.
How would you sum up how the benefits of HSL to the club?
Well the money goes directly to the club, firstly. If you look at other clubs, putting Hearts aside for a minute, because they deserve special mention, but at other clubs where there are similar schemes they're going into the market to buy shares from people who own shares.
That means that the money goes to the people that own the shares and not necessarily to the football club.
The simple thing we have is we're buying shares directly from the club, so all the money bar a maximum of £2 administration fee from Go Cardless who do the banking side for us, goes directly to the football club, and that translates to known budgets, certainty for the manager and Leeann, so if they know they're getting an amount of money from us each month for a year and beyond then they can budget more appropriately
.
That's why, and I'm not saying it was all credit to us, they were able to sign players early, because they knew what the budget was going to be. There was a certainty about the money coming in not just from within the operations of the football club but through HSL and the wider share issue.
At one of the recent Working Together groups, Leeann presented a message about fan ownership. The big selling point has been about signing players, but do you think there's scope to push the fan ownership benefit?
We actually banged on about it, the social media is one avenue, but we found early on that you only get to a limited audience on social media.
Jim Adie used the phrase 'boots on the ground' and we started going along to the associations, talked directly to associations and fans along with Leeann etc, and we talked about not setting targets but there are hurdles. The first hurdle is 20% ownership because that gets us a seat on the board, the next hurdle is 25.1% because that gives you, negatively called, a blocking vote, but the board have to consider our view and can't just railroad something through.
We've tried to emphasise that, but emphasise it in a positive way rather than 'this is a blocking vote' because we have to work with the club to put the best product on the park, which is what it's all about.
So yes, we'll continue to do that but it's easier to do face to face than sitting on a website, or twitter, or a blog or whatever. We've got just over seven and a half thousand season tickets, and thirteen hundred likes or tweets or whatever.
So that means we're not getting to people who could join up and those are the ones we need to target, we need to get a way of targeting them.
That's just one message, the big positive message is that the more money we can pass to the club, the better the product is.
How has the reaction to the 'boots on the ground' approach been?
It's been good, you do get people still doubting, still saying 'we're not coming back until certain things change.' and I always say that we have no responsibility over that.
Our job is to raise money and buy shares,and if you want rid of anybody then the more shares, the more control, and if we get to 51% then we have control of the board.
Generally it's been favourable. I give great credit for this to Jim Adie. He felt that we could say things on Twitter and Facebook and it wouldn't really address directly some of the issues that were being heard against us.
Face to face we could look people in the eye and say 'That is wrong. You are wrong, this is what we're trying to achieve and this how we're trying to do it.' Whether they were converted or not, it doesn't really matter. What does matter was that we had credibility.
We went along en mass, the entire board - unless Charlie (Reid)was away touring - we went and spoke passionately as Hibs supporters first, then as HSL Board Directors, and we appealed our facts, and the simplicity of our message. And this did have an effect
.
One of the big boosts was St Pats joining, was the Australian branch joining, was the Hibs Supporters Association actually joining and giving us a major contribution, and that gives us a real credibility amongst the fans, and that's how it's gone.
I saw some opposition to HSL from St Pats' members early on on hibs.net, it must have been a big boost to get them onboard given their influence?
It was a key one, people are allowed to have their opinion, nobody's saying they can't have an opinion. All we ask is that if they don't like it that they don't interfere with it.
We just ask for a fair hearing and a fair chance, and the ability to put the right answers to some of the questions that have been asked, but if people don't want to join, they don't want to join.
The same with fan ownership. Some people will want it, some people won't, it's as simple as that.
With the ownership comes responsibility, which brings us back to Hearts. Their supporters have embraced the responsibility of funding their football club. £140,000 a month they're putting into the football club through the Foundation of Hearts, and that's just to run it, that's not getting them shares.
That responsibility of ownership means you might be asked for more money in the future. I'm a believer in the democracy of fans having a greater say in the club and indeed ownership, but it's up to the fans to decide whether they want to do it or not. You can't ask that question of HSL, you have to ask the fans and then listen to the answer.
How much has HSL put to the club so far?
In terms of money going in, it's £150,000 for the first six months, that figure broadly doubles over the next six month, so looking at £250,000-£300,000 ,which is new money, which is the key point.
It's not recycled money from season tickets or walk-ups, it's new money. Fans have put their hands in their pockets and it's new money that we've not had before. And if we keep growing then that money continues to grow.
It's a virtuous cycle for the club because it's new money coming in and it allows them to think about 'well, that would have been our player budget last year and the year before , but we didn't have this money, so it's now that plus the new money.' So that's the tangible benefit that HSL has had in the club.
I also think we've had some involvement in turning some of the negativity around a bit. I think the club has worked hard, I know Leeann and the comms team - Colin Millar particularly, worked hard meeting the fans and answering very plainly some of the concerns either through the website or in meetings.
I think we've also had some of the responsibility for changing some of the attitudes. Some you'll never change, that's life. So those two things, money and the changing face of the fans' opinions about the club.
If we can talk about you now, you were a former board member and have re-joined - what happened there?
I was a board member after we were relegated last time, so perhaps they feel I might have some skills at Championship football. Last time I was book-ended by Alex McLeish and Tony Mowbray, and that was a particularly big change in the club as well. People tend to forget those days.Some of the fan opinions were just as vocal, and some of the protests just as hard as in the last year.
I did, I think, seven or eight years. I'm a great believer that if you stay too long, you're no longer independent, and one of the key roles of the Non-Exec is to be independent, and to be able to support and challenge the Executive to say "Are you doing the right things, is this the right way?"
That first period, for me, there came a point where you weren't really making the difference that you should be making, so I left the board at that time. I had a period off, my wife unfortunately died, she'd been ill for a long time, all these things come together, so in 2007 when I left the board, I had a nice long period in between. I continued to come to games, I continued to support the club, I continued to do things for the club in the background.
I'm a do-er, the way it came about was that the board decided well before Leeann actually arrived at the football club, that things needed to change. They saw it. They could see the way it was going, and then relegation happened.
So they'd already decided that structurally the club needed to change, they needed supporters back on board somehow, and part of that was the appointment of Leeann.
Leeann brought along an agenda - a very good agenda, and transformed football operations at the club. There was already a view about a flotation, a share issue, before Leeann came. Regulations changed, we got relegated, things were put on the back-burner a bit. There was the BuyHibs initiative out there, and what eventually became HSL was out there. Around about October/November last year, I was approached to see if I could be a bridge between the club and the people behind the original HSL stuff, including Jim Adie.
I said 'Of course, I'll do that', the birth of HSL came about that Christmas. I acted as the middle-man to get Jim and the people behind his initiative to sit down with the club, and then just do what I do which was to drive things until they actually start.
During the course of that period I might have succeeded a bit, and having the experience I know how the football club operates and I think that was an important factor. I know how things get done at the club and the nuances and the likes, even though there's a lot of changes.
That was useful from an HSL perspective and then Rod, as Chairman, said it might be a good idea if I came back on board.
With six/seven years more experience of business, my kind of view of the club had changed, and I felt I was more independent, I was able to really question some of the things being done. Also the experiences and learning of that '98-2006 period directly related to some of the things being done today.
The history of the club I know inside out, with the work with Tom Wright and the Historical Trust allowed me to say "Before you do that, you might want to think about this." So I think they found that quite valuable.
I also retired from work, I'm not that old but I was in a position where I could stop work, so I'm at the club at least two or three days a week helping directly, so they thought I would be useful sitting on the Board as well, so that's how it came about.
How have you found it since?
It's like it was, I remember my first game I attended as a director originally, was Greenock Morton, and the responsibility hits you as you walk out onto that deck. There's lots of good ones, the 6-2, the Millennium derby, but you feel the full weight of every goal against you as a Board Director, but it's a challenge, and I like a challenge.
The club's done lots of things right, and I think in amongst all the noise that's been out there in the last two or three years, people have forgotten that there are a lot of things right at this football club and it just needs a few things to put it on the right path again.
That challenge I really enjoy. I enjoy my football, and that challenge of helping this great club get back to where it should be is something that excites me, and I love it. And of course, being on this board with Frank is a great honour.(Said as Frank Dougan entered the room!).
What message would you have for anyone thinking about getting on board with HSL?
It's quite simple - join if you can. I do actually mean if you can, we don't want to be irresponsible and ask people for money that they can't afford. We do realise that people, supporters, buy season tickets, buy tickets, buy merchandise, and in reality spend proportionately a lot of money on Hibs.
Buy if you can, not only are you helping the football operation but you're helping create a bigger group with a bigger percentage in the club. It's a bit like a trade union, there's a power in togetherness.
It's the same with the football club, if we're all going in the same direction it's more powerful.
HSL, the more members we get, the more shares we get, the more voice we get. But don't be irresponsible, let's be clear about that.
The message for me, is this is a great club. Football's cyclical. There's another team of eleven men out there trying to beat you so can't guarantee anything. But what I've seen, in the time I've been back, is a restructure of the football operation, better use of the training facilities, signing players to a structure that Alan wants to have in here, and putting in place a football operation so that when Alan inevitably leaves to go to another football club, it's easier to bring someone else in and that whole operation is maintained.
That's all the great things that are already here, and to be part of that is wonderful, and HSL is a big part in that, so please get on board.
I would like to thank all at Hibernian FC for their time with the interviews, and especially Frank Dougan, Amit Moudgil, Stephen Dunn, and Colin Millar for arranging them.
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